The Day the Law Died

How naïve of me. I thought laws and court rulings matter. They might in other places, but not here. The rule of law died in the beautiful Virgin Valley on April 12, 2014. Cue the violins, please.

Cliven Bundy won. Through threats of violence fueled by armed militias called in by our local tea party “patriots,” he won. The Bureau of Land Management was forced to dismantle their operation to rectify 20 years of his lawbreaking with court orders to back up removal of his cows from public land because Clark County Sheriff Gillespie made the BLM stand down. He didn’t want a shoot-out on his watch.

It was a wise move. As bad as the national publicity was for our little community with Cliven Bundy as our LDS pioneer family poster child, a Waco or Ruby Ridge shootout would have been worse. Responsible people didn’t want to see others get killed, either.

Reportedly, local businesses received threats. Well, that’s nice. That should help economic development in our fair community.

Of course, the BLM didn’t have many friends in high places. Governor Brian Sandoval and Senator Dean Heller stood with Cliven and the tea party and condemned the BLM. I myself heard Republican Congressional candidates Niger Innis and Cresent Hardy stand with Bundy against the BLM in their tea party debate last week. The Hardy and Bundy families settled the valley together generations ago. It will be handy for Cliven to have Cresent in Congress looking out for his interests. Don’t you think?

But where does that leave the rest of us?

Vulnerable.

As soon as our local tea party pals don’t like a law or a court order – they can speed dial up a civilian army with loaded artillery that will threaten us with violence in order to impose their will on the rest of us.

Put THAT on your fancy looking websites, Real Estate Agents, Chamber of Commerce, Mesquite Regional Business, Mesquite Resort Association, Golf Courses, Casinos and Businesses.

Our little corner of the Grand Canyon had potential to be a tourism economic driver. But the pioneer families (and friends) kept screaming about getting the federal government out of Gold Butte, vowing to block their protecting it as a safe multi- use area for everyone to enjoy. Well, don’t worry about THAT any more. The feds are gone. Armed militia groups have tweeted they’ve set up camp and are patrolling the region so the feds don’t come back. It’s Bundy’s now. That should work out much better.

So, good job, everyone. The tea party has eliminated the rule of law, militarized the Gold Butte region with armed civilian militias, saved those poor starving cows to wander the desert for inadequate food and water, enhanced our business climate with threats of violence, put us on the map of every nut with a gun who is itching to fight for “liberty and justice” AND established Cliven Bundy as the face of the Virgin Valley. All in one week.

So …. you can go back to sleep now, check on your tee time or resume your bingo game. The tea party has taken over our little valley with their version of civilian government by gun. Nothing to worry about. I didn’t mean to bother you.

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Comments

  1. DOUG says

    The last act in this play has yet to be written.
    The Feds have given them enough rope, to hang themselves.
    The courts will become their OK corral.
    Politicians will scurry.
    As, justice finds, the Bundy Tea Party, so-called Constitutionals.

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    • Bon Kruder says

      Doug, exactly. The Feds were in a no win situation. They were right to regroup.
      This aint over yet Elaine. Not even close.
      I thought about shedding a tear, then I had to laugh. In the end, acts of terrorism by these gun totters will be prosecuted. They had the surveillance and will go after these crazies individually. Divide and conquer approach, and frankly, I’m super glad no one got physically hurt.

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    • Delta says

      The last act may involve arresting one Bundy at a time for failure to pay the fees or Contempt of Court. Then the feds can quietly collect the cows at their leisure.

      Why the big show by the BLM is beyond belief.

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  2. Bob says

    You are so right Elaine. History has shown that now the white supremacists, conspiracy theorists, the religion crazies of Westboro Church mentality all will now find Bunkerville as a nice little place to settle. Think it won’t happen? Think again. They are coming. But worse, yet the Mormon Church has remained silent on their brother Bundy. The Mormons have let this happen. As ugly as this sounds, the Mormon religion controls every single facet of a members lives but they have hidden in the shadows on this one. The coming result will lay at the door of the LDS church.

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    • Rose says

      Bob, you stated my first thought when I heard that these protesters were staying. How long before one of these militia groups finds Bunkerville a great place to take over?

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    • Stimpington says

      Not true. The Mormons are the ones trying to move Bundy out. They want to sell the land to China to put a power plant there.

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      • Don says

        Sorry but it’s not the Mormons, It’s Dirty Harry that want’s that…

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      • Jgyar says

        Not true about any solar plant here. Is a conspiracy theoryand a lie.

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      • Jgyar says

        He is a Mormon. Reid is not any part of it. You are getting info from ‘off of the wall’ websites. I can’t believe how bad people lie on the Internet and the conspiracy theories are absolutely crazy. I think the guilty party is Bundy and I think the militia are looking for a reason to have their so called Revolution. I wish they would do it someplace else. They had a lot of balls to close our freeway. The American people weren’t very happy when the Washington Bridge got shut down. I guess those protesters and whoever thought they were cool.

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  3. Scotty says

    The Virgin Valley is now under the control 0f a semi-literate anachronism with messianic delusions. The maps of the northern Clark County need to be changed to show this area as the Theocratic Territory of Bundyistan. Not sure I want to be part of Bundyistan.
    I think BLM had to withdraw or there would have been another Waco. Hopefully, it doesn’t end here or the rule of law is pretty much abrogated in Mesquite.

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  4. Cindy says

    I agree with you Elaine. It’s a real shame that Vundy doesn’t!t have to follow the laws but the rest if us do.

    What if all the other 1600 or so ranchers decided to do the same thing?
    Why should they follow they follow the rules?

    Makes me mad that our Governor, Senator and other officials think it’s okay for Bundy to ignore the rules and court orders. What kind officials do we have in Nevada?

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    • King Curmudgeon says

      if the government is willing to pay farmers NOT to grow crops,why should these ranchers have to pay grazing fees?

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      • Jgyar says

        You aren’t very bright are you? Get on the computer or go to the library and read some credible information.

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      • Herman says

        Good question, but responding to wrongs with more of such will destroy our country.

        Since I was a literal teenage slave on a dairy farm, that subject made an impression on school-flunk-out brain:

        http://www.ewg.org/agmag/2012/11/dairy-s-downward-spiral-consequence-broken-biofuels-policy

        http://static.ewg.org/pdf/Crop_Insurance.pdf

        The question arises, is the health of dairy cows more important than that of war veterans?

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        • Brian says

          I am glad that you got your freedom, Herman. Slavery is one of the worst atrocities that humans ever devised.

          Hopefully the people that were holding you have been arrested and thrown into prison for the rest of their lives.

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          • Herman says

            Unfortunately not. My story is far too complex to explain here. Its blunt truth has also made feel uncomfortable.

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          • Herman says

            Thank you, Brian, slavery and many more much worse episodes have given me many unusual blessings.

            How I escaped from hell could be considered a miraculous journey.

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      • The Bishop says

        You and I are the government. If you want to pay the million for him, be my guest. I don’t. He can afford to pay it himself.

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        • Brian says

          I’ve heard him offer to pay it several times. I have even heard others offer to pay it….

          … but it isn’t really about the money. Is it?

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    • Jgyar says

      They will eventually get him or his kids will have to pay. I think that is pretty chicken s—.

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    • Brian says

      Got some names of these “domestic terrorists”? A list of the acts of terror that they performed?

      I asked for a link yesterday. Maybe some video. I haven’t seen one yet.

      I am new to this site. I stumbled onto it as I searched for information regarding the story about a protester kicking a dog. After finding the video I found out that the unarmed protester was being threatened with an attack dog and kicked while defending himself. I then learned about the 1st amendment areas and saw video of government agents intimidating unarmed civilians for protesting.

      This situation was created decades ago when environmentalists decided to impose their will upon the cattle ranchers. This was a shortsighted move that forced a situation like this to happen.

      I have repeated asked in the other thread if people understood what the situation was about. While no one would really answer, the rhetoric is about money and a guy breaking a law. It isn’t. It is about the abuse of the system and the mishandling of the situation by the government.

      If it were truly about the turtles, then the number of cows is fine now and there was no need to continue. The INTENT of the law was met.

      Using the government to impose your will upon other citizens will always spark a feeling in Americans. People like myself that took an oath to defend the rights of Americans against ALL enemies will want to respond when those liberties are being tread upon. It does not matter whose boot is stepping.

      It is not about the cows, the turtles, or the unpaid fines.

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        • Brian says

          Thank you, Dave.

          Hopefully, this man will be brought in and someone will explain the difference to him between Peaceable Assembly and aiming his weapon at a law enforcement agent. HE is in the wrong.

          Unfortunately, some people do not understand the difference between what is their right and what is not. The man in the photo obviously does not understand what a militia is and why there is a need for it. It is too bad that there is so much confusion and such poor coverage of the situation.

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        • Stimpington says

          Terrorism causes terror. How can anyone have been terrified of this man? He is hiding behind a concrete barrier. They didn’t even know he was there or they would have arrested him right away.

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          • John Williams says

            AHH! I see. So a snake-in-the-grass hiding behind a cement barrier waiting to shoot a federal law enforcement officer is better, I guess.

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        • King Curmudgeon says

          I don’t see you bringing up the fact about BLM sharp shooters. Or BLM pointing guns at cameramen.

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          • Ralph Drake says

            I sure missed you while you were on vacation, will you be taking your next one soon?

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      • Bon Kruder says

        I think what’s hilariously sad , is it is really just about the cows and everyone has taken this “war” to the cause de jour. public land, old rancher won’t pay , hadn’t paid while everyone else had, but should not be there anyway cause of endangered tortoise, it’s the cows. Poor cows.
        Now it’s state vs fed, constitutional rights, gun toting rights, religious inequality, poor legislation, lack of law enforcement. Lousy government, crappy Mormons. Poor cows.

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        • Brian says

          Which other Clark County ranchers are paying?

          I understand your confusion over the issue, look at 10 different website you get 10 different versions of the facts.

          It is not about the cows or the turtles at this point. If it were, the environmentalists would have stopped fighting the battle once the total number of cattle were below the decided on total.

          This is about one group of citizens abusing the legal system to remove the rights of other citizens. It became more than that when the law enforcement agents used excessive force on unarmed civilians that were protesting their act of seizing private property.

          The outcome was a wise decision on behalf of the government, but obviously will not solve the situation. The real issue needs to be looked at with an unbiased eye. Is there really a reason to remove the last cattle rancher? Is his herd still too many?

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          • Bon Kruder says

            Brian,
            For some odd reason I know several ranchers, organic at that. They pay their grazing fees. They know EXACTLY how many head of cattle they roam on land they did not purchase, and it’s a reasonable amt per head . Bundy is a thief. He’s a lousy steward of his cattle and the land. I hope the government representing we the people round up this jerks cattle and fine him for back monies due. I pay my taxes, always have. This guy is a scourge
            On the rest of us. And his cows have suffered enough, now he’s spreading his bad mojo to the entire community.
            Bundy and his poor damn cows.

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          • Brian says

            So are you saying that the issue I not Cows, turtles, money, rights, or the law? Are you saying that it is about Mr Bundy’s character?

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          • John Williams says

            C’mon Brian – you seem like an intelligent person, so why do you refuse to look at the facts. The allotted number of cattle allowed on his leased land was 150. He has spread his herd over an area 5X as much land as he ever had allotted and grew the herd (or let it just grow wild) to over 900 head. If he had reduced it to the allotted 150 long, long ago there would be no issue!

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          • Brian says

            John,

            While I do not agree with what Mr. Bundy did, I also disagree with the idea that there would “be no problem”.

            It is obvious to me that the actual intent was to remove ALL cattle from the area. The tortoise was just a means to an end.

            If concern for the tortoise was truly the issue, then you should be rejoicing that the total cows per acre is so much lower due to the expansion of grazing area.

            Comments that I have read here and elsewhere have slipped and hinted at the actual desire to remove the cattle so that people can enjoy playing in the area without the cows.

            I am new to the area (2005) but have lived in many areas in the U.S.A. and have seen similar issues everywhere I have lived. Newcomers to areas want to change their new hometowns into their old hometowns. People wish to change the ways, traditions, and laws of the area to fit their own desires and views.

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          • John Williams says

            That sounds like a pure “conspiracy theory”, Brian. Damn the facts and the evidence, you just feel like there is something more sinister out there, so you and others make stuff up. The solar plant that’s well over 100 miles away must be it? No, it must the “secret” deposits of special minerals that no one has seen or knows about? Or “never seen or proven” oil shale deposits? C’mon.. Evidence or no sale!

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          • Brian says

            More Libel from a “law abiding citizen”.

            You are throwing things about that I did not say. I made an observation based on the facts that I have been shown.

            Why would the fight continue after the total number of cattle was below the allowed number?

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      • The Bishop says

        You don’t need a link, just google it under armed militia Bundy Nevada and you’ll have all the pictures you need. Many reporters capturing some of the pictures had rifles pointed at them for taking them…these are terrorists who want to rule by violence not law.They only wanted you to see good old Bundy as the victim. I believe NBC has a good narrative of the timeline somewhere as it was broadcast starting from before Nevada became a state. It is about an arrogant liar enriching himself using our land and water….He and his family never owned this land….he lives next to it. I don’t think you would like your neighbor to use your patio, electricity and water because he feels entitled to it because he lives next door. Spare your sympathy. We want our town back and want these nutjobs gone. Invite them to your place if you think they are so great. Bundy has gone from a local nutcase who hid behind his children over a decade ago armed and threatening to kill the BLM agents sent to collect his cows then….they walked away – he was willing to have his kids die in a Waco Glory fest. He has been a thorn in our side….We had a community garden in Mesquite and just as the crops were getting ripe, Bundy’s cows showed up inside the town miles from the BLM and trampled it. You think this was an accident? We are sick of him and his grandstanding Bull. wE WANT ALL THE ARMED MOB GONE AND OUT OF HERE. Bundy is not even a resident of Mesquite; he lives in the Bunkerville area. This is about money and power and it is my right to live in safety and in peace with rule of law not mob that has been trampled on. Judge after judge including Reagan appointed judges have ruled his claims have no merit. Yes we now want him completely off our land…we’ve had enough. The mob did everything they could to provoke a violent confrontation. Please take Bundy and his 15 children out of here. We don’t want him. Take the Koch Brothers and the Tea Party helping him as well. Their goals are political…ours, we just want to go back to being a safe little town. Murder here is rare. This was a safe place to live. If this mob decides to settle here, I expect that will change. It is my greatest hope that Bundy and every one the people who showed up here winds up incarcerated to get them out of here.

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  5. Clarence says

    Worst of all, those poor cattle are SUFFERING again. If this had gone better, we could have had 900 more ObamaCare supporters.

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  6. mmcgreer says

    And Bundy was supported in his lawlessness by Republican Governor Brian Sandoval and Republican Senator Dean Heller. So much for their commitment to law and order.

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    • Bon Kruder says

      And Mike,
      I’ve been predicting Sandoval as a Pres contender in not this, but next election.
      He’s been pretty, well inoffensive, has a moderate forum, and let’s face it, is young & damn good looking. So now we have, dumping mental patients and supporting Bundy. Could be good in the big picture.

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  7. Susie says

    Such a shame. Folks on the right claim to be so dead set against “free stuff” for the poor…but in their eyes, a wealthy rancher grazing cattle on government land for free is perfectly ok. So much publicity about the Armed Crazies who have set up camp to guard against the return of the BLM should certainly discourage some folks from visiting our city.

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    • King Curmudgeon says

      There’s a difference. Welfare recipient suck up/leech tax payer dollars,while cows eat grass that grows FREE!

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      • The Bishop says

        What do you think these armed guys are living on? Air? They are not working so they either are living off the government or being paid by the right wing to cause trouble here. Cows may eat grass but they drink water. This is a desert….you do the math.

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        • Brian says

          Air has a lot to do with it.

          Which armed guys are you asking about?

          The heavily armed guys in brown are being paid by the government (I guess it would depend on opinion as to whether or not the are “living off the government”).

          I wouldn’t know what jobs the other guys have, I don’t know them. Do you? Do you actually have proof of who they are and who is paying them? Or was your post just more libel in an attempt to fan the flames of a situation that has already gotten out of control?

          As far as the math goes… they have been ranching in the area for over 100 years. Got some numbers?

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  8. virginia barron says

    Thanks, Elaine. I’m still too angry to collect my thoughts on this episode to be coherent. I didn’t want a bloody confrontation either, but what we have been left with may be even worse.

    I do question though, why the feds haven’t held him in contempt of court. Is anyone with legal expertise able to answer this for me? Why can’t he just be hauled to jail until he pays up and follows the law?

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  9. dave mcnall says

    Can you draw down on a government official and still call yourself a patriot? Last Friday (4/11) a hastily mustered, heavily armed and armored militia poured into Virgin Valley. The videos I’ve seen paint a dire reality; if you bring enough guns to a rally – you make the rules. This was/is seen by the militia members as a victory – again w/ plenty of video, really?
    I’m thankful that an adult (Sheriff Gillespie?) was present and no blood shed but the precedent is disturbing. The parties that looked through the reticles of a scope with the minimal intent of injuring a public official going about their jobs are seditionist. Plain and simple – this is not a grey area or open to opinion, it is the definition of sedition. Thank goodness for vast quantity of video they should be easier to find.

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    • Jgyar says

      I feel that many things said on those videos and even on some of the News channels were out of proportion and lies. They are just a bunch of wanna be Civil War rebels who want to relive the past. Bundy was a good excuse to start something, which they are itching to do. Bundy isn’t innocent, by any means, but I think this has gotten out of hand, even by him.
      It might come to the BLM bringing in the big guns which is called the National Guard. Bundy or the militia thugs can’t get away with this.

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  10. Doug says

    I spoke to a friend in Bunkerville who says Bundy is planning to set up a camp area on his ranch so all these gun toting terrorists can come and stay as long as they want, for free. He is encouraging people to move there. And bring their guns.

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    • dave mcnall says

      “Howdy neighbor” tee times start at 6 am and bingo in the odd hours after 9.

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      • King Curmudgeon says

        “Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.”-Saul Alinsky

        Good Boy Davey!

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    • Lew says

      I hope these gun toting idiots enjoy playing army camping out at the Bundy compound when the summer heat sets in. I bet they don’t last long.

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  11. says

    The BLM took the high road here. Another Ruby RIdge or Waco would have been inexcusable, and that is exactly where this was headed. I’m not sure that the governor is with Mr. Bundy as much as he was against a shootout. We’ll have to wait and see on that. Mr. Bundy is subject to arrest and that is what should be the next law enforcement move.

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  12. Rose says

    Did anyone-else notice how thin the calves were? Are they even being taken care of? I’m not a rancher but these cattle don’t seem to be in good condition. Where are the animal rights people?
    We lived in cattle country in Wyoming and although the Ranchers didn’t always agree with the BLM I did not know one that didn’t pay his allotment. Did not know one that wasn’t there at calving or who left his cattle on their own to find food and water. We have seen skinny cows out there drinking out of a mud puddle and

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    • Terry Z. says

      I like animals a lot more than people! Why do these animals have to suffer, they have done nothing. Steams me!

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    • Jgyar says

      Rose on. He has feral cows out there running wild and unbranded. That is another reason why the BLM was out getting them. This isn’t right and the right wingers definitely aren’t right. Good ranchers don’t abuse their cows and they do paying their grazing fees.

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  13. Clarence says

    Let us not forget that the reason BLM started this roundup was because of an environmentalist lawsuit. Secondly, from the perspective of a person that has spent much of their life in the backcountry (and none whatsoever at Disneyland) rest assured those cattle are not suffering. They may be uncomfortable at times, as we all are when it’s 117 out, but they are not lolling their tongues and longing to be with their cousins in Amish country. I only mention this Ms. Hurd, because I believe your heart is in the right place. No offence meant.

    Bundy and his clan will eventually get what they have coming to them. Instead of inheriting a ranch, the heirs will be able to visit it when it becomes the newest part of the Gold Butte NCA. In the mean time, the Cliven clan may want to develop some new beef recipes, because I suspect the Feds are working on seizing their financial assets at this very moment.

    The fine people of LTN may also want to calm down for now, and save some rage for November, when Democrats lose their Senate majority. Who knows, maybe then you will recognize the things you can change from those that just motivate your opposition. Or maybe not. Best wishes to all.

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    • Luke says

      I’m far from being a rancher but this would be the last place I would choose to raise cattle due to the dependence on vast amounts of BLM land for making ranching viable. The best resolution to this dilema in my opinion would be for Bundy to declare victory, put the property up for sale, then move his ass to Utah or somewhere else where he either owns the land outright or pays a reasonable grazing fee. (With assurances his land will not be targeted in the future, for whatever that’s worth.) I’m confident his Mormon friends would be more than willing to help facilitate this endeavour. I also agree with John that the herd number has gotten way out of hand and is hard to control. As much as I support his stand, I think he’s nuts for wanting to tarry where he’s not wanted.

      That being said I thoroughly disagree with Ellen’s take on the matter. Bundy family had been using that land for over a century. They had been faithfully paying their grazing fees as required by law. In 1993, BLM tried to put Bundy and other ranchers out of business by charging exorbitant grazing fees in order to protect an “endangered” tortoise that wasn’t actually endangered. (Decades of nuclear testing didn’t threaten the turtles yet Bundy’s cows somehow do ?) Bundy saw this as a violation of his lease and of his basic human rights, and told them to FOAD.

      BLM took him to court, saying the law–which the BLM itself wrote instead of Congress–was against Bundy. Bundy basically said FU BLM, not going to let you put me out of business and take food out of the mouths of my family. At the behest of those masquerading as ‘enviro-nazis,’ BLM put all the other ranchers in the area out of business with their exorbitant fees. Bundy said it wasn’t going to happen to him.

      Twenty years of court wrangling, and BLM decides now is the time to come out with snipers, tasers, dogs, etc. They started roughing people up, including a pregnant woman. They tasered an unarmed man who was doing nothing, and tried to run over another one with a truck.

      Is the law technically on the BLM’s side? Yes. Germany’s laws were on Hitler’s side, too. Parliament’s laws were on George III’s side. But the whole system of America’s three-letter bureaucracy is blatantly unconstitutional, tyrannical, and corrupt.

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      • Brian says

        The sad part of this situation is that the BLM was forced into it by the Environmentalists even AFTER the original intent of the 1993 action had been met.

        The stated intent back then was to lower the number of cattle to help out the tortoise. The grazing limits were changed in order to lower the total number of cows. As ranchers packed up and left that number went lower and lower. Even though Bundy’s herd is larger than it was in 1993, with him being the only rancher left the total number of cows is far below the total number that was determined to be ok in 1993. For some reason, this is not good enough. The INTENT has been met.

        There is much being made of Bundy not paying his grazing fees. While I do not agree with him not paying (the amount is extremely small per cow), how would he be able to?

        The limitation that was forced on him and others made it impossible for him to pay for the cattle above that number. The government could not accept the fees for anything above the number and he could not pay for anything less than the true amount. It forced him into a situation of becoming an outlaw or not being a rancher.

        It isn’t that he just up and decided to quit paying for the right he had been given. His right was taken away from him and he had no other form of redress.

        Just because a law is written, it does not make it a good or just law. The intent of that law must be considered each and every time it is being applied.

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        • Terrie says

          Why does everyone keep saying last rancher. I know of two that still have cows out there. I think that is part of the problem….getting the facts right. But I am sure glad of the stand down. I expect there is more to come.

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      • John Williams says

        Exorbitant grazing fees? Maximim $2 per head per month = $24 per year per cow. Is that what you call exorbitant.

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      • The Bishop says

        Interesting you should mention Hitler. I was just thinking how similar these so called malitia are to the first Nazi’s. They also had access to unlimited guns and through intimidation and propaganda took over the government…much like these tea party backed anarchists now. I hear 5000 more are coming…I guess it took awhile for the Koch’s to find and hire them.

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    • King Curmudgeon says

      Clarence,You have Hit the Nail on it’s Head. This was never a major issue until Gold Butte was being considered for a Conservation area,and I wouldn’t be surprised if the ‘Friends of Gold Butte’ escalated all this,if not brought the lawsuit.

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      • The Bishop says

        That is absolute bull. The friends of Gold Butte are horrified by this and see any escalation as being the ned of Mesquite’s future as we become another Waco They are people who love it here and want to protect the beauty around us and make sure it is accessible for everyone. Get a girp KING Curmudgeon.

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  14. April says

    I am so sorry for you folks who have to live with these armed invaders from other states. Have you been checking license plates to see what states they are from?

    It appears that the Koch funded Americans for Prosperity in Nevada and Colorado have been whipping up the gunnies. The other Koch funded organization ALEC has also been pushing legislation in the Western States that tries to take our Public Lands from the Federal government and have it come under state control. If our lands are under state control then they can be sold off to the highest bidders for mining, and other commercial activities. It will be done under the excuse that this is the only way to fund our roads and schools.

    Of course this is very short sighted but it will allow the Koch’s and other 1%’ers to extract valuable minerals and oil from our lands without any return for We The People.

    This seems to have less to do with skinny cows and everything to do with taking our public lands for us.

    Stay safe everyone.

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    • King Curmudgeon says

      Without any return for We The People? WOW! Have another glass of Kool Aid!
      Tell us April,how do you get to work? How many items in your house are made from valuable minerals and oil from our lands?How do you think anything works without valuable minerals and oil from our lands?

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  15. woodpile says

    As a citizen (and former republican} who voted for our current president it is quite clear to see what is going on
    here. We never got the transparency that was promised…remember that we were supposed to see everything on CSPAN! Both major party’s share the burden in keeping 3rd parties out along with fresh ideas. I would rather have a Ralph Nader or a Ron Paul instead of what we got now. Are we really worried about cows on our public land more than drug cartels controlling our public land a little further south? Is anybody worried about not the cause but the fact that our kids and grandkids will never be able to pay for public pension liabilities? I am not against welfare for those in need but I am tired of these endless wars that provide jobs for a few in this country but break the bank and kill civilians all over the world for what?!! Clive Bundy seems like the least of our problems. I am not a violent person but I can see our central government herding us into a “no win” future. Unless you work for the government ie military, state, county etc the immediate future doesn’t look good. However, if you work for the government they will never be able to keep their promise of your retirement pay in the future. Just look at Greece or Spain or Italy. You can argue over the cause but not the results. How many cities are going bankrupt as we post? At this point I think it is a luxury to worry about cows on public land.

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      • Jgyar says

        A moderate Republican would. I know some who don’t like the Tea Party. In fact, quite a few of them don’t. The Tea Party isn’t normal.

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        • woodpile says

          Didn’t say I didn’t like the Tea Party. But I did not like Mitt and like the GOP establishment even worse.

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          • Jgyar says

            The Bin Laden comment meant that the radical Tea Party uses the Constitution like Bin Baden used the Koran. Hypocritically. Most Americans respect the Constitution. Even the Democrats. This ‘We the People’ thing is getting taken out of proportion. We are all Americans and most of us respect and obey the Laws of this country.

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      • The Bishop says

        I was a Republican….an Eisenhower moderate. In order to save the Republican party all moderate Republican have to vote Democratic. Maybe then they will stop taking us for granted and get rid of the tea party from their ranks. Let them be their own party…they’ll never get elected and maybe we can get back to having a working government. The Republican motto should be Smart government Not NO Government. I am totally disgusted with the ignorant hateful hypocrites who are the tea party. They are the fronts used by the wealthy who pay to get them elected preying on the ignorance and prejudices of the tea party membership. Their goal is to keep enriching themselves and keep their power. Good example, they are going after the IRS now. Trying to defund it so there will be no one to try to go after their complicated tax returns to insure they at least pay something while the average worker just pays thru the employer deduction. Great plan. It worked with defunding everything else they did not like.

        I stood next to a tea party birther at the chiropractor. After listening to his tirad I asked why he was there. He was there to get a massage because he had hurt his back a couple of years ago in a workplace accident and was now on permanent disability and medicaid at 50.- his fees were paid by me and you. Mine was paid by me. He could walk, see, talk and hear. He was not disabled, but felt it was perfectly OK for him to get all the benefits, just not those welfare mothers. People like him are sucking our social security system dry. When I finally retired and went to apply…there were no old people there. They were all white people who could walk, hear, talk and see getting disability. They were not on welfare but are still on the government dole. Stop buying into the propaganda and do some research. I bet you buy into the horrors of socialism too…guess what the top 10 countries where people are happiest, healtiest and the most prosperous are all based on capitalism with social care…Scandanavian countries, Switzerland, and even Canada. The US is not amoung them and we will continue to fall in the ranks if we don’t get the tea party nutcases out of office. We also need the insurance companies out of our medical care…they are an expensive middle man we don’t need. As for Obama, he may not be our greatest president but he beats George W who is probably the stupidist and worst. We are still paying for his wars and the bulk of our debt is due to his policies…Obama is paying the interest. Stop listening to Fox and do some research. Romney was a lying elitist. But he sounded dumb enough that the tea party could relate to him. Obama just sounds to intelligent to appeal to them They need one liners like We Built It, understanding difficult concepts is beyond them…and if they don’t have the attention span to understand it or the brains to comprehend it, it must be evil. YIKES. Our founding fathers were intelligent, articulate and dedicated to the greater good. The tea party would make them puke.

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        • dave mcnall says

          Good stuff Bishop, the more I read (& I haven’t been back here since yesterday) the stuff you write the more I respect your views. It’s refreshing to know there are people in our community worth listening to. Elaine, John and Mike have done a great service to our community by providing this, free of charge. Which reminds me there are sponsors listed at the bottom of the lead page that would probably appreciate hearing what a great job these people are doing.

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        • Jgyar says

          The Bishop. I like what you wrote also. I don’t say that often to Republicans or ex Republicans, but I agree. I think the Democrats and Republicans are going to have to work together to beat the Tea Party. I feel that they are dangerous for our country and future and a lot of them don’t even know it. I have young Republican nieces, cousins, friends, etc. and they don’t even know why they hate Obama. They think that the elite and rich Republicans give a hoot about them, which I don’t think they do. Look at what Paul Ryan is trying to do. I am afraid they will take this country into complete poverty and then the Koch Brother types will take over this country, if they haven’t already.
          I think that these, “We the People” radicals are really confused. They don’t seem to think that the US Goverment is also, We The People,’ but they consider them the enemy. Very strange. They have been so badly brainwashed. Not sure what we should do, but I do think that we all need to support our President now and try to help the Democrat Party get these people out. Everyone needs to donate and vote in the mid term elections. Also, I was standing next to two militia types, with guns, today at Walmart. They were buying boots, so must be planning on sticking around.

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    • Mr. Lee says

      As they say, all politics are local. I don’t have a drug cartel running around in my backyard, I have an irresponsible cowboy who, for over 20 years now, has not merely refused every effort to resolve the concerns over his grazing practices but actively thumbs his nose at the courts and law enforcement with threats if they should try to bring him into compliance.

      This self serving egotist has now invited every disgruntled rancher, anti-environmentalist, anti-government, anti Obama, anarchist and armed vigilante within earshot of the internet to set up shop in our backyard to further escalate his show of disdain for the broader community. At some point the U.S.A. will either need to cede Bunkerville and the surrounding 600,000 acres Bundy claims is his to use as he sees fit or bring this self serving scofflaw to justice.

      True enough, the world has problems that dwarf Mr. Bundy’s selfish fabrications but Mr. Bundy is the one actively attempting to kick the United States out of our little corner of the nation so he’s the one we’ll have to focus on here in southern Nevada.

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        • woodpile says

          Bob,
          Drug cartels in Mexico have violently and many times publicly killed upwards of 60,000 Mexicans in the last 6-7 years. In many small towns there are no police and no one wants to sit on town councils. Now Mexican drug cartels are starting to control land in the US! You are saying you would rather have this than some cows grazing on public land? How shortsighted!!

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          • Brian says

            Woodpile,

            Evidently you haven’t been properly informed. Mr. Bundy is now considered a Bin Laden level terrorist.

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      • Chris says

        You are spot on , Mr. Lee . Great job Elaine.
        I hope the majority of us in this valley are law abiding
        responsible citizens and feel the same. I for one do not want to live in fear of outlaws threatening violence in my backyard every time they don’t agree with the laws of the land.

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        • Jgyar says

          Well I guess if this happens again, the National Guard will have to be called. Then the militia can have their battle that they want. I think they would lose. We have enough problems with the radical right wing in WA, so shouldn’t have to live and deal with radical militia groups who are using the Constitution for their evil beliefs. Reminds me of Bin Laden. Sorry, but true.

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        • Brian says

          Chris, I am getting confused, in what other issues have these “outlaws” threatened violence?

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      • Linda says

        I agree with you. It’s amazing how Bundy continues to bring more on after he admitted on TV that he does not recognize the federal government, at all. He tries to stand behind “his” version of the constitution, with 1st and 2nd amendment rights, yet does not recognize the government. Now, a fund has been set up and he’s asking for donations. They are having a BBQ on Friday. I want to know…how darned gullible are all of these folks flocking to help this law breaker? I’ve got some beach front property in Henderson to sell to them! LOL

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  16. Terri Robertson says

    Great article. What a time we are living in. My heart is saddened by what has happened. Look out America. Militia rule may be headed your way. I believe in my country and know that we will find a way to make Bundy pay for his criminal actions. It has to happen. Criminals do not rein in my America.

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    • Willy says

      Terri, sorry I can’t share your point of view. Criminals do rein in America.They are the bankers and wall street thugs that foreclosed on homes they did not own. They falsified documents to take peoples property and have only had to pay a few dollars to stay out of jail. One bank admitted to laundrying over 800M of drug cartel money and paid a small fine and no officer of the bank had to face a criminal court. Our Attorney General admitted before congress that the banks had committed fraud but were too big to bring criminal charges. I would say that is when the rule of law died.

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      • Chris says

        Willy, what is your solution? Did you support the Occupy Wall Street movement? Do you think they should have brought guns to back up their protest and should have threatened to shoot bank workers doing their jobs? Do you support overthrowing our government? What is your proposal to ensure justice is served to all lawbreakers equally such as bankers, brokers, bilkers ,and the Bundy gang of outlaws ?

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      • John Williams says

        Willy – for once I agree with you 100% about the crimes of Wall Street. But that has absolutely nothing to do with this situation – right? Do you advocate complete disregard of the law by all citizens because the Billionaires of Wall Street guys screwed us all? The horrid rulings by the Roberts court have only strengthened the hands of those folks, but the folks on the right side of the political spectrum cheer those rulings also.

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        • Willy says

          John, maybe to your great surprise, I believe all laws should be enforced on an equal basis. Our government or courts should never exempt someone because they have a lot of money or political influnce. Our Surpreme Court has made a shamble out of the orginal constitution with their liberal interpetions of the document. They are nothing more than another political body of government. They once held my utmost respect but over the last 50 years they have changed.

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    • Jgyar says

      Harry Reid said that to and then he smiled. I wonder what that means?

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  17. woodpile says

    Terri,
    Is your heart saddened by the federal government posting danger signs on the US side of the border saying “danger, drug and human trafficking area”? Isn’t this property for the enjoyment of all Americans? Why aren’t they charging the Mexican government grazing fees or something?

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    • John Williams says

      Woodpile – the immigration issue is a big one – and some folks are trying to work on it and others aren’t. But it has nothing to do with this situation. Misdirection is a transparent tactic and helps nothing. BTW – the current administration has allocated more resources and been much more effective at border security than any others before it, and net immigration is actually negative now – meaning more leaving than entering. But I know it would be impossible for you to give ANY credit to this admin.

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      • woodpile says

        John,
        How do you know it would be impossible for me to give the current admin any credit ? That thought says much about the way you want to put people in boxes. I am pleased we didn’t go into Syria and I will be pleased if we stay out of Ukraine. I am not pleased about the under reported Libor scandal and I agree with Willy about “the too big to fail not in jail crowd”. Private unions are good but public unions are too strong. I am not a Haliburton fan but I am not a fan of any business that is too cozy with the local, state or federal government. If there was some sort of “transparency law” that shone light on all levels of government we could maybe move this country ahead. But failing that I expect to observe more of the same that is going on right there in Bunkerville… all over the country. The system seems beyond repair and there is simply too much division to make it better. As far as “misdirection” goes the reason there is less net immigration now is because of our poor economy.

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  18. JAG says

    The author of this article is so confused. As are all of you who agree with her. This fight is not about a man refusing to pay a debt and stealing from the public. It is not about a desert tortoise. Do you understand that there were 52 other ranchers that owned ranches next to Bundy and ALL of them have been put out of business from the BLM? The have all been stripped of their livelihood. Bundy stood up and refused to allow the BLM to use HIS money to put him out of business. Another thing you do not understand is that in the Constitution in Article 1 Section 8 Claus 17, it limits the amount of land the Federal Government can own. The BLM “manages” the land but under the Constitution of America, they do not own it. That is another one of their lies. Also Bundy’s ancestors owned the water rights to land long before the BLM or Forest Service was even established. He is not stealing from anyone, and he even said he is willing to pay the state of Nevada, whose land it belongs. Do you not find it horrific with the 1st amendment “areas” they established? Do you also know that the BLM has NO authority to Police Power and they carry weapons and threaten to arrest people? It is all so wrong. The fight is for the Constitution. We all need to study it more so we can understand our rights. If we want freedom for ourselves and our posterity, we need to stand up for Freedom now! I hope the author of this article is not the first one to have to give up her home and hard earned money in the name of the Federal Government. If that is the type of Government you want, America is not for you!

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    • woodpile says

      Jag,
      Are the 52 former ranchers supporting Bundy? It would be interesting to hear from them. It would also be interesting to know what percentage of the local people support Bundy. Is it more of a retirement area for people from outside the area?

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      • says

        A note to those who don’t know the area. Bundy has a small ranch outside of Bunkerville. Bunkerville is a small community on the south side of the Virgin River. Mesquite is a much larger city of about 17,000, across from Bunkerville, on the north side of the Virgin River. Interstate 15 runs through Mesquite, so you drive through Mesquite going from Denver or Salt Lake to Las Vegas. Mesquite is about 40 SW of St. George, UT, across the NW corner of AZ. Mesquite has a large number of descendants of the original settlers, and also a large number or retirees who came in the boom of the late 1990s and 2000s.

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      • John Williams says

        FYI – The Cattlemens Association does NOT support Bundy.

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      • Jgyar says

        I am curious where they would have been 52 ranches in the past. For some reason, I don’t even believe that. Why would 52 ranches even be in this hot and barren desert, when they could be someplace that has more grass and water.

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        • Brian says

          You don’t believe that there were other Ranchers in area prior to the changes made in the 90′s, Jgyar?

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          • Jgyar says

            Brian, I wasn’t here way back when, but were would 52 ranches have been, unless you are talking about the Overton area too. I am wondering where they all were located?

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  19. woodpile says

    Is Elaine Hurd from that area? She sure seems upset with the Chamber of Commerce and all the other businesses with her “fancy looking website ” comments.

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    • King Curmudgeon says

      You can tell the people that are from here and the ones that aren’t.The ones doing all the complaining are ones from out of state that moved here to push their will on others.

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      • John Williams says

        Yeah – that darn “one man, one vote” thing, and that crumby old “free speech” thing really aren’t to your liking are they!

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        • King Curmudgeon says

          Maybe you should have someone explain my comment to you,John.

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  20. Yawn says

    Thanks Elaine for making sure that we all know that Cliven is “Mormon” we want to make sure that everyone is aware of his religion as it is so vital to this situation. I also noticed that you failed to mention the religion of others involved. Why do you do that? I for one am glad the Mormon Harry Reid stepped in to shut this operation down and protect his interests. From now on please mention all peoples religion when you single out one person. I know how the left likes everything to be fair and quite frankly your dislike for Mormons is apparent in your articles and comments through out this website. Why is is that the ones who scream about racism, prejudice and fairness are the ones who are the least tolerant?

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    • Brian says

      While you at it, Elaine…

      Could you please let me know if you went into town to file a complaint about yourself in regards to “libel”?

      Or at least clarify why it is ok for you to break one law, but Mr Bundy must obey a different law?

      While I understand that you are just letting off steam because to are upset with the outcome of the events, it is a bit difficult to believe your sentiment about law and order when you do not follow the law while complaining.

      ps. to help with your compliance to Yawn’s request, I am non-denominational and NOT a “Tea Party” member.

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    • John Williams says

      Yawn – Mesquite was on the Mormon trail and the area was settled at the order of Brigham Young by Polygamist settlers. These are not religious slams, they are part of the background on the area. Virtually all of the settling families were Mormon and they received free land and water rights from the U.S. Government for settling the area. Bundy received a generous allotment of land and water that were DEEDED to him as a homesteader. That property and those water rights are HIS – earned by the toil of his long-ago relatives, and no one begrudges him that land or water, nor is anyone trying to take that from him. These are just historical facts.

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      • King Curmudgeon says

        Seeing that 90% of the stories on LTN always mention they are Mormons, I think much of it is prejudice.

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        • John Williams says

          BS. Please go back through the stories (all archived on the left side of this page) and actually do a count. Wanna place a bet? My money is on “less than 10%”. BTW – don’t count reader comments – this is an open forum where people can make comments – we don’t control that.

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  21. Stimpington says

    You should have known that him and his cows were there before you moved in.

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  22. Cindy says

    Jag, you are way out of line. Have you looked up BLM on the internet. That gives you some idea what’s going on. The land belongs to the federal Government and is managed by the BLM. Bundy has nO rights to the land. He doesn’t pay grazing fees as do all the other ranchers.
    So you’re saying that Bundy shouldn’t pay so why should the rest of them pay.
    If it was ruled in a Federal Court that Bundy should remove his cows and didn’t the. He broke the law and should go to jail.

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    • Willy says

      Cindy did you and Elaine put on the same set of blinders or is it just the kool aid you are drinking?

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  23. mmcgreer says

    JAG

    Thank you for raising the issues. But lets deal with facts.

    1. The legal issues are about a failure of Bundy to pay the public 1 million dollars or more for grazing fees on publicly owned federal land. His lawlessness has been upheld by the courts. All else is misleading and disingenuous to the legally decided question. It is fine if you don’t like the law or the courts decision but don’t continue an argument that is factually incorrect. We live in a nation of laws not Bundyism.

    2. A lot of ranchers are out of business because of market declines. Poor management on poor land has nothing to do with BLM.

    3. Successful ranchers who choose to graze on federal land understand the importance of grazing management and avoidance of overgrazing.

    4. You misread Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17 (which applies to “western wastelands east of the Mississippi). It reads: “The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to prejudice any claims of the United States, or of any particular state.” Nevada’s constitution reinforces this issue.

    6. The Bureau of Land Management (BLM), and its predecessors have been managing (administering) public lands since establishment of the Northwest Ordinance of 1787. They do this in behalf of the people who own the land. Bundy has stolen from that public by not paying grazing fees.

    7. No one “owns” water rights. Nevada’s first water statute was enacted in 1866, well before Bundy’s came to the Country. Both federal and state regulators control permits ensuring that water is delivered to the people in a fair and equitable manner.

    8. The BLM Office of Law Enforcement & Security, is headquartered in Washington, D.C.. It is an armed federal law enforcement agency of the U.S. government. Special agents are normally plain clothes officers who carry concealed firearms, and other defensive equipment, make arrests, carry out complex criminal investigations, present cases for prosecution to U.S. Attorneys, and prepare investigative reports. Criminal investigators occasionally conduct internal and civil claim investigations.

    9. You are right about the fight for Constitution. You are on the wrong side.

    10. I don’t know about all authors but I know that my family has been ranching and obeying federal, and state laws since settling in central Oregon in 1879. While many of my ancestors have gone off to other careers my cousin still operates, very successfully, the old homestead. Responsible ranchers do not support Bundy’s lawlessness.

    11. Yes, I have the government I want and understand its roll in a free society. My family has been very successful following the laws for generations. I support the government not armed insurgents.

    12. Don’t blame the government for the failures of others.

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    • Jgyar says

      To mmcgreer. Right on. I wish all of the radical right wingers, militia, Bundy fans and who thinks he is a folk lore hero, could read your post. I am going to copy it and might minus your name and post it in some of the idiotic websites I have read and some of the phoney and lying videos I have seen. They are lying more and more and its is making me sick.

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      • King Curmudgeon says

        Care to share a link? Or is it Huffpo,msnbc or Daily Kos? They are the ones proficient at lieing.

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        • Jgyar says

          Kingster, you are wrong. I think the biggest liars are Rush Limbaugh, Beck and Hannity. Fox even told the voters that Romney was ahead in the Election. That was a lie. That is the problem with many of the Repubs. They watch that crap and believe it. Ed and Rachel on MSNBC both tell the truth. Rachel researches her information. I wish she would run for Congress.

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    • The Bishop says

      Thank you for your well written and lucid reply. I could not agree more.

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  24. Chris says

    Seems pretty straight forward to me. Either you believe in law and order or you don’t. Disagreements on legalities are the purview of the judicial system. Those who support armed citizens taking the law into their own hands by threatening federal agents doing their job are seditionists. They are not heroes or patriots.

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    • Brian says

      Be careful where you tread while spreading rhetoric.

      By your definition, anyone that supports the creation of America is a seditionist.

      Do you support the use of excessive force and the stifling of free speech if it done by a “Federal Agent” while performing his duties?

      Have you ever served in the military?

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      • John Williams says

        Yes, I have, but that has NO bearing on anything here. Hon DC in 1974.
        Here is an interesting feed I picked up about the “Heroes” in the TeaParty Militia. Just saw Richard Mack, leader of the Tea Party Militia, on tape saying they were strategizing to put the women in front so when the BLM officers shot them it would be on all the worldwide media! What great Americans!
        Here’s a link:
        http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/04/14/1292049/-Chickensh-t-TeaParty-Militia-in-Nevada-Wanted-To-Use-Woman-as-Human-Shields-for-Cliven-Bundy

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        • Brian says

          You have what?

          You are confusing me again, John. I asked Chris a question and You answered it? Are you Chris?

          How many log-ins are we allowed to have here?

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        • Linda says

          Yes, he actually said that more than 1 time! He also said he would stand behind the women and be the second in line to get shot. Some really nice folks there, now aren’t they? Please don’t ask me for a link….the interviews with him are easy to find, just look. Another guy just itching for a fight….and hate’s women too.

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    • Jgyar says

      Chris, I agree with you. I think those guys, which tend to lean to the far right, have written their own Constitution or else they have really twisted the real one. I think they are rude, disrespectful and don’t even deserve to live in this country, and they should be ashamed of themselves.

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  25. Yawn says

    John, I am well aware of the history of this area and I don’t have a problem with talking about the Mormon heritage but Elaine’s style of writing speaks volumes about her intent. Was is really necessary to call Cliven the “LDS pioneer family poster child?” I think you will find that many Mormons disagree with how Cliven handled this situation and that he should have paid his range fees.

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  26. Troy McArthur says

    Mrs. Hurd, well done on Ralston Reports. You and I agree on Mr. Bundy was mostly culpable for this incident by defying the rule of law and/or court orders. Had he obeyed the court this potentially dangerous situation could have been averted. It is unfortunate that he chose to disregard the law and continues to do so.

    I disagree with you to throw the LDS community into this, and the tea party. I am LDS, I know of many (although it may still be in the minority) that did not side with Bundy. I am not a tea party member, but agree with many conservative issues and some liberal issues. I think it is disingenuous and misguided to throw everyone into the same group. I have pioneer ancestors that sacrificed to come out here and they obeyed the rule of law.

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    • Don says

      Troy, You took the words right out of my mouth. Mrs. Hurd was very impressive on Ralston Reports and “pretty much” on target. A little misinformed maybe but I respect her courage to take a stand.

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      • John Williams says

        I know Mrs. Hurd and she strives to be accurate. Please let her know on this forum where she was misinformed and I am sure she will correct if it turns out to be true.

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    • Elaine Hurd says

      Troy, thank you for your comment. My reference to Cliven Bundy as LDS was meant to be historical. His family is part of the pioneer LDS heritage that settled this valley – a point made loudly and often as part of his claim to the land. Certainly not every LDS member is supportive of Bundy’s antics and I never said that. If I were a descendent of the rugged pioneers who settled this valley, I would separate myself as quickly as I could from him, just as you do. Regarding the local tea party – the president of the Virgin Valley Tea party stood up at city council last Tuesday and announced a protest action, built a coalition with 2 other tea party groups in Nevada to increase tea party support, has been interviewed by the media as a tea party leader in support of Bundy and hosted a debate with two Republican congressional candidates who support Bundy. This chaos is most definitely the handiwork of our local tea party activists.

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  27. Vegas Vixen says

    Elaine, Great article, and GREAT job on Ralston!

    I have been FUMING that the nutjobs were basically let get away with this… I’m still absolutely blown away that they just gave him the cows back and now they are right back out there on PUBLIC land, killing more turtles and ruining Gold Butte. Enough is enough.

    With that said, I guess for the sake of public safety, it had to be done. No one wants to face unstable nutjobs with machine guns as they drive home, or to work.

    I just hope to god that they fight him in court, make HIM pay every time he owes the STATE, and MAKE him get his cows off public land. Given the current state of things, this will be drawn out for another decade.

    Honestly, I feel sorry for the poor cows. Not enough feed or water out there to sustain them.

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  28. Linda says

    Excellent article. I see so many people trying to figure out whether what the Bundys are doing is legal, or not legal. That is not what worries me. Isn’t anyone concerned that people can come to our state and bully their way into getting what they want? “Armed Patriot Militia” from around the country, shutting down the highway, basically holding people of Southern Nevada hostage. How many tourists were stuck on the highway because of guys standing in the middle of the road with assault rifles? Regardless anything about the livestock…..you do NOT hold people hostage to get your way. You do not hold a “peaceful” protest with assault rifles. No one can convince me different. So, just know….what this says to the rest of the country. This is still the Wild, Wild West and we do not live by law and order. Why would any companies want to come to this area now? Why would conventions that were thinking of trying Nevada, why the heck would they want to come now. No law and order in Nevada….it’s too risky. Come on folks….forget trying to be a “right fighter” and look at how scary this is. You wouldn’t treat gangs from CA coming over here with guns making demands, now would you? Why are these “Militia” any different.

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    • Delta says

      When there is a surge of people willing to fight and they come into an area, there is a name for that. The media call them “INSURGENTS”. They are not patriots or even militia. Just insurgents and they carry the negative connotation that comes with that name.

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  29. northvegasboy says

    “As soon as our local tea party pals don’t like a law or a court order – they can speed dial up a civilian army with loaded artillery that will threaten us with violence in order to impose their will on the rest of us”.

    Wow…is that like the Obamacare “law of the land”? The same law that Obama keeps changing..over and over again? Without congressional approval? Aferall, he’s got a “pen and a phone” right?

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    • John Williams says

      First Warning – comment completely off topic. If you want to write a column on the ACA you are welcome to do so, but not OK to try to hijack others.

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    • The Bishop says

      Hey you forgot to throw in Bengazi….Grow up and do some research and stop listening to the Fox Network.

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    • John Williams says

      OMG Herman – this is really off-topic. And the horrific misrepresentation of information on the link you provided is laughable. The frauds perpetrated by private, for-profit service providers are eventually usually uncovered, like one of the largest fines and penalties ever levied against none-other than the company run by Republican Florida Governor Rick Scott, and then the Republicans nominated and elected him! Yes, I agree that the pharmaceutical Companies charge waaay too much for many of their products, but the Republicans that voted for the Medicare part D legislation REQUIRED that Medicare pay top dollar and never negotiate for best prices! That, of course, just shows that their rhetoric about “free markets and competition” is simply BS. And the ripoffs and ludicrous administrative costs of private insurance companies has been horrific, but the ACA now at least places some limits so that they now have to spend at least 80% of the premiums actually paying for medical services. Of course medicare spends 97% on medical services. You usually present much better information than this – but this one was waaaaay off the mark. And, by the way, even though fraudulent billing is WRONG, it is a far cry from armed vigilantes invading a community and ignoring court orders.

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      • Brian says

        John, I am pretty new here so I figured I should ask..

        Why did Northvegasbioy get a “First warning” for his off topic remark but Herman got a full discussion in reply to his off topic remark?

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        • John Williams says

          We do not edit comments. With a choice of removing the post and the link entirely or exposing its ridiculous assertions, I chose the latter in this case. I did not want to edit or remove his comment, but I wanted to express my opinion of it so others that saw it would at least think about the content, because it was ludicrous in its presentation. We are quite lenient about posts, but NLVboy has made these off-topic comments many times so I felt it time to warn him.

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      • Herman says

        Dear John,

        Specifically, the implications of the title “The Day the Law Died” implied that it died with the latest global entertainment performance near Mesquite. The point is that in spite of, or because of, evermore laws, evermore laws are not being enforced, on local and higher levels.

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      • Herman says

        I have visited face to face with hundreds of people from all walks of life. What they keep confiding in me about their various personal experiences is off the charts. The greater the public silence….

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      • Herman says

        > The frauds perpetrated by private, for-profit service providers are eventually usually uncovered, …<

        Far, far from it!!! If my experiences are a reflection of the norm, justice can be difficult to achieve, in the US as well as in other countries. And I am not talking about fairness, level playing field, self-victimization, etc.

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  30. Linda says

    An interesting tidbit about the cattle….we spend a lot of time on Lake Mead. Many times, when out in our boat, in a cove called “Glory Hole” we have seen cattle on the shoreline. We always wondered where they came from. Now we know. Isn’t the shoreline of Lake Mead a National Park? I don’t believe anyone even has the “opportunity” to pay grazing fees for letting their cattle roam in a National Park, do they?

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    • John Williams says

      You are correct, Linda. That is why the operation to impound the cattle was a joint effort by the BLM (for BLM managed lands) and the NPS (for National Park Service managed lands) as Bundy has allowed his cattle to unlawfully expand from his originally allotted 80,000 acres to over 350,000 acres, including into Lake Mead National Recreation Area. But his supporters seem to think this is OK also. If they have their way I guess we can expect to see cattle, mining, drilling etc in Zions. Grand Canyon, and, well, basically anywhere jerks like Bundy want to let ‘em go. It is really ludicrous that ANYONE would support this activity, let alone elected representatives of the people.

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      • Linda says

        I agree John. This should not be allowed to happen. I remember thinking that these were the skinniest cattle I’ve ever seen…..and wondered who the heck owned them. Cattle never looked like that in the Midwest….where I grew up. Also – about what happened in I-15. I still don’t understand how it’s ok to be standing on a highway, blocking traffic, with any type of gun. I’m not against responsible gun ownership. But you cannot call this responsible. Can you imagine how many nuts out there now think they can do that too? How many tourists, heading to Mesquite, are going to change their mind. This could really hurt the economy of the area. I’m certain the hotels there are probably full now, of the media and protesters, but it could really hurt them in the future…..even looks bad for Vegas and the entire state of NV.

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        • The Bishop says

          I agree, if this does not end peacefully soon Mesquite is dead.

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  31. John Williams says

    Thank You Caleb for the correction. It is managed by the National Park Service but is a National recreation Area – correct.

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  32. woodpile says

    All the above problems could be solved very easily except that the 2 major parties will never allow it to happen. They bash each other in the house or on the senate floor than they go out for cocktails and do some laughing and back slappin at our expense. They benefit from insider trading and the majority leave office very well off with nice pensions. Their strongest supporters are the ones that have benefitted the most from some sort of quid pro quo arrangement…whether public unions or business.
    On this particular forum there seems to be quite a few that have benefitted from the Harry Reid types. Other forms support the John Boehner types. The Reid and Boehner politicians will stop their fake bickering only long enough to dig a grave for the Nader’s and the Paul’s. Of course I’m talking about term limits. Without term limits the young people will continue to get screwed as one dynasty after another rapes and pillages their future, often selling any advantage they may of had to another country. In fact I can think of at least one foreign country that has way too much influence on the decisions (domestic and foreign) that our politicians make. The Clive Bundy’s of this country are the least of our problems and the whole affair could have been handled administratively.

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  33. John Williams says

    Alert the press! I almost agree with ya. Except the “sides” don’t go out and drink cocktails or have dinners together anymore like they used to. THAT was when they showed some respect for governing. I, of course, am on the side that believes that working people (lower sand middles class) SHOULD be paid a living wage and the unions are the ones that have kept what little middle class we have left alive. I agree that the Bundy’s of the world are not as important as starting unnecessary wars of choice, but inciting armed rebellion against our government certainly is not a good precedent to set, or support. Administrative procedures don’t remove 900 cattle from 350,000 acres, but I suspect that more admin. and criminal actions will help. Why don’t you write a column or two about “undue foreign influence” and term limits and let’s have an open forum discussion about it? submissions@letstalknevada.com

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    • woodpile says

      I think it was our government that did the inciting. The federal government is a powerful, far reaching entity that over time (right or wrong) could have achieved their desired results by bankrupting Bundy thereby forcing him to sell the cattle and thus removing them from the sage grass.
      There was no reason the government couldn’t have handled Waco differently either by patiently waiting for the opportunity to arrest Koresh. Same with Ruby Ridge. I have experienced federal government over reach in my own very small business but had no choice but to grit my teeth and take it at a very heavy financial cost. Local people sympathized with me but in the end there was no one to turn to. I draw a distinction between government unions and private unions. If private unions ask for too much the company goes out of business. If public unions want more they vote in higher taxes but end up with a net gain (until the municipality goes bankrupt which is happening more and more). Living wage issues are a farce. You would be very hard pressed to find an area in this country where you can squeak out a living for $20 an hour. However, the moment the stores raise their prices to cover the wages, customers including the union people do more on line shopping. Would enough people shop at Store A and pay twice as much for a loaf of bread if you knew the Store A owner was paying the help twice as much as Store B down the road? Lets say that Store B was paying an employee with a family of 4 $10/hour (20k annually) and Store A was paying an employee with a family of 4 $20/hour (40k annually). Just where would most people shop?

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      • Brian says

        Most would obviously shop at the store with cheaper prices.

        My experiences lead me to believe that people will believe in something until it actually affects them personally. They would applaud Store owner A, but shop at store B.

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        • John Williams says

          Costco is the actual example of it done right! Don’t need to starve employees to make a profit.

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          • woodpile says

            I wouldn’t exactly say “Costco is the actual example of it done right”. They just pay their people a little more to peddle the same Chinese goods. Goods that too many people wouldn’t pay an American more to make. I’m guilty too as most often there isn’t a choice anymore. It picked up speed in 1992 with NAFTA. Since then it became a global corporate world with Americans on the losing end of fair trade thanks to both major US parties. Soon our children will be relegated to waiting on tables or clerking at Costco as our 180 day school year can’t compete with other country’s 225-250 day (high powered by math and science) school year.
            Don’t bank on “America’s superior creativity”, we are not inherently any more creative than anyone else. We just got lucky early on by having enormous undeveloped natural resources at our disposal with two huge oceans on either side to help keep the riff-raff out. Over time we built up a heck of a lead over the rest of the world but we seem to have blown it. When skilled foreign workers are heading back to their native country to get a better job what’s left for our under educated young people? BTW, who determined what the living wage should be? Even at $30 an hour a family of four would be hard pressed to get by. How about if we do like Iceland did…throw the bankers in jail and bail out the people on the bottom?

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    • Clarence says

      With all due respect, why would you suggest “Woodpile” waste his time writing about undue foreign influence to this crowd. You may recall submissions and comments regarding Dual Citizenship in Congress, the ethnic makeup and overwhelming power of the Federal Reserve, Control of the Mainstream Media, AIPAC, “The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy”, Jimmy Carter’s “Peace not Apartheid”, and Obama’s Chicago AIPAC handler, Rosie Rosenberg. “Woodpile” would do far more good trying to enlighten a younger generation than addressing people who firmly believe they are the solution, when in fact just the opposite is true. Of course, “clicks” are an essential part of drawing advertising dollars, yes.

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  34. Lawrence says

    I am a Mesquite resident, ashamed of it a planning to relocate after this debacle.
    Governor Sandoval’s actions during this this incident were a disgrace. I am retired and fortunate enough to travel with season’s. I hike into the back country of many western state’s. The damage I have seen done to our public lands by cattle and sheep is beyond belief. That being said the people who put their livestock on public lands are doing it lawfully, pay their grazing fees and follow the dictates of BLM or Forest Service land managers. Most of them struggle to make a living and are decent hard working people.
    A fine resource for understanding livestock on public lands is a book: WELFARE RANCHING. THE SUBSIDIZED DESTRUCTION OF THE AMERICAN WEST. You can get it used on Amazon for bucks. A huge book filled with photographs and data. It will open your eyes to the amazing stupidity of grazing livestock on public land.
    Cliven Bundy is an embarrassment, a thief, a criminal and a loudmouth jackass. We the American people can not allow him and his thugs to take control of our land. Write a letter to the Governor and Senator Reid today!

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    • The Bishop says

      I am considering moving as well. We have written to every member of the house and Senate asking for an investigation and resolution to get these domestic terrorist out of here. We also want to know who is really behind it all and where is the funding coming from. Everyone I know in Mesquite regardless of political party wants Bundy and his mob gone.

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      • JAG says

        Good riddance to both Bishop and Lawerence. Your talk of moving has made my day. Thank you! You don’t deserve to live in Nevada anyway. We don’t need your type. Nevada is better off without you. Farewell and please don’t come back. You need to move to the East, or better yet, a different country who doesn’t appreciate freedom. Bye, bye!

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  35. Jgyar says

    The Bishop. Why don’t they put out a warrant for his arrest and send the FBI in for him?

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      • Jgyar says

        I don’t. Maybe that is why the militia is here. I guess it will be a waiting game, but don’t these militia guys have other jobs?

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        • John Williams says

          Probably the next step. I believe the BLM was trying NOT to go there, but Bundy’s actions really give them no choice. It is NOT a choice to just allow the law to continue to be broken.

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  36. JAG says

    I realize that those of you who are against Cliven Bundy and the stand he is taking will never understand what is really happening to America until it is too late. It is frightening to me to read all of the posts that are not understanding what this fight is really about. I am mainly concerned about the future for my children and for yours. This is not a fight about Cliven Bundy. It is about freedom. I’m sure most of you in this forum agree with Common Core, Welfare, the Patriot Act, Obamacare and all of the Government atrocities that are forced upon us. Those Federal Government programs strip us of our freedom and we are unable to think and act for ourselves. Back when I was in grade school, I remember having a disagreement with my best friend because we had just had a unit in school about the importance of wearing a seatbelt and how it was now the LAW. At that point I agreed with my teacher that everyone should be forced to wear seatbelts because it was proven that they save lives. My friend, much wiser than I, saw beyond the seatbelt law and saw how the Government was just overstepping and taking another bite out of freedom. I agree with her now that the Government takes away freedom slowly, one bite at a time, not letting us take responsibility for our own actions, until we are in their total control. Yes, I make sure my children and I are all buckled when we ride in the car — because it is proven that it is safer — not because it is the law. I am capable of making that decision. The Patriot Act was supposedly put in to “help” us feel safer. It says we should feel safer if we let the Government take over our rights and then supposedly the Government with take care of us. Obamacare forces us to get insurance and threatens our livelihood if we want to take the natural consequences of making a different choice. Fees upon fees are piled upon us if we don’t comply. I’m sure most of you will bite back at me and tell me this has nothing to do with any of these other programs, but I believe the Bundy fight has everything to do with it. I am capable of making my own decisions and I do not need the monetary assistance in anyway from the Government. I know this is just more meat for you to chew, but I just wish you each could understand what is happening to America and what it will be like for your kids and grandkids. It is OK if you disagree. Thanks for letting me poke my head into the fire with a few comments.

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    • woodpile says

      Jag,
      Very nicely said. I’m from Minnesota but I believe what’s going on in Nevada is way more relevant to our country’s future than what is going on in Ukraine, Middle East, Western Europe or anywhere else around the world where our presence serves only to hurt our children’s opportunity for a peaceful future. Why should so many of our young ones feel forced to join the military in order to get a job or money for college tuition?

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  37. mmcgreer says

    Jag and Woodpile

    You are trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear. You do not guarantee freedom by stealing from your neighbors, surrounding yourself with armed men and women and threatening the nation with war.

    A lot may be wrong with government but using armed resistance against legitimate government action is unacceptable to any rational person.

    Bundy is not a hero. He does no represent freedom. He is a thief trying to avoid paying one million dollars to the taxpayers and the government that provided him with the opportunity in the first place.

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    • Brian says

      “You do not guarantee freedom by stealing from your neighbors, surrounding yourself with armed men and women and threatening the nation with war.”

      So you DO agree. His rights should not have been stolen and armed men should not have been sent in to surround him with the threat of war against him.

      Thanks for opening your eyes.

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      • John Williams says

        Lawful action by the owner of the property, upheld by several courts and appeals is NOT STEALING. It is lawful action. You really need to quit making up your own definitions of words.

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        • Brian says

          My apologies John, intent is more important to me that wording is.

          Just because someone found a way to use the law to remove his rights, doesn’t it make it good or correct.

          In the 1830′s a state issued an order to “exterminate” Mormons. Would you stand behind that as well?

          Did you fight against Civil Rights to defend the law as it was written at the time?

          Did you fight against those domestic terrorist that wanted to overthrow the Imperial Government in order to for a “more perfect union”?

          Do you think that severely limiting the rancher’s grazing rights was the “right” thing to do?

          If so, how do you stand on your own argument? The LAW said that they had those rights.

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          • John Williams says

            Wasn’t around in 1830.

            Yes, I fought to Change the Civil rights law, but not by breaking other laws.

            Wasn’t around during the revolutionary war.

            The “Ranchers Grazing Rights were a written, legal agreement that was subject to change EVERY year. Yes it was “right” to limit them as the primary responsibility of the BLM is to manage the land for ALL of the citizens of the US. The law said he had the rights granted for one year at a time, subject to change every year!

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          • Brian says

            Thank you for answering, John.

            I didn’t ask if you fought FOR civil rights, I asked if you fought AGAINST them.

            By stating that your fought FOR civil rights, means that you DO understand that law as written does not necessarily mean that it is “good” or “right”. This means that just because a “legal” means was used to forced the ranchers out of the area, it does not mean that it was “right” to do it.

            If it is about the money, then it should be fine for him to graze his cattle if he pays the fees.

            If it is about the tortoise, then you should be happy that he spread his herd over a larger land mass. It leaves more per acre for the tortoise.

            If it is about the law, then you have no leg to stand on because you have admitted that the law is not always right.

            Are you sure that it isn’t just about getting rid of the cows and the ranchers?

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    • JAG says

      That is what I am talking about mmcgreer. You want to be blind to the facts for the reasons Bundy stopped paying. He realized the money the BLM was taking from him and his neighbors was being used to strangle his livelihood as others have already experienced. He did not have a problem paying for his AUMs (do you even know what that stands for? — in case you are not the familiar with the BLM it stands for Animal Unit per month) and is willing to pay the state of Nevada. The land does not even belong to the Federal Government. It belongs to Nevada. Another one of the BLM’s lies is that they ‘own’ the land. The Founding Fathers never intended for the Federal Government to have such power — and this is the reason. From your comments, I can only assume you have never actually had to deal with the BLM. You’ve just read about it. I am a rancher. For years we have had to deal with ridiculous mandates from the BLM and Forest Service. People who work for them are book learned idiots who know nothing about ranching especially in Nevada. Not all the things they learn from their books are accurate or apply to real life. We, the ranchers, know the land. We learn it from the past and from experience. You and I disagree which is OK. I just wish you could understand the point I’m trying to make about freedom.

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      • John Williams says

        The “reasons” Bundy quit paying his rental fees for use of federal property don’t matter. I DO NOT agree with many uses of my tax dollars, but I cannot quit paying taxes because I don’t like the way the USA spends my money. You have again, as many others, including Bundy, made the claim that the land in dispute does not belong to the Federal Government, but that claim has been debunked many times on this site with factual information about land ownership, and also by several courts. You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts!! I know you have no respect for PHD’s and other “book learned” people, but your stupidity and lack of scientific education does not give you the right to disobey the law.

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        • Brian says

          “Reasons” always matter, John.

          If a woman is arrested for killing a man, doesn’t her reason for killing him matter?

          If her reason was that she didn’t like the color of his shirt, then her reason was wrong. Would it be the same is her reason was that she managed to grasp his gun while he was raping her after killing her husband and children?

          You seem to have blinders on and cannot understand the difference between words and intent. Do you treat every situation this way? or just the ones you disagree with?

          You may not agree with Mr. Bundy’s “reasons”, but that doesn’t mean that they “don’t matter”.

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          • John Williams says

            OMG Brian. If the “woman” in your story killed the man in self defense she committed no crime, and she would not be convicted in court!!!!!!! Bundy had several court cases and was convicted EVERY TIME. This wa snot a momentary crime of passion, it was a legal case that was over-adjudicated because of Bundy’s attempts to stall, but in the end, after ALL of the evidence, he was found guilty of violating the law. Your false equivalencies will not sell here. Make a valid argument or admit that you are trying to defend a criminal. Friday we will post several recordings of Bundy speaking. It is appalling. He is reliving the sagebrush and advocating illegal actions again. Pull your head out of the “weigh at all sides” world and look at the TRUTH, and history. “Reasons” based in proven illegal actions are not valid justification for continual lawbreaking.

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          • Brian says

            John,

            Your statement was that his reasons didn’t matter. I was merely trying to show that reasons DO matter. His reason may not justify his actions, but they DO matter.

            In another situation, a bit unrelated but I would like to hear your opinion. What would you decide on this matter:

            http://www.today.com/video/today/54957034

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          • Brian says

            As far as “false equivalencies will not sell here”, Mr. Bundy was deemed the same as Osama Bin Laden here and that equivalency seems to be flying just fine.

            Or did you actually mean MY false equivalencies specifically. I assume that goes for King and NVB as well.

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          • Ralph Drake says

            The reasons ended when Bundy LOST in court, He had every opportunity to state his side in court, He LOST, he is out of reasons.

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    • woodpile says

      Mmcgreer,

      I disagree clearly on two points.

      I did not view the Bundy’s as “threatening the nation with war”. The only people dressed as soldiers were from the government. The snarling German Sheperds lacked curb appeal also…looked like they were forcefully trying to deny somebody there civil rights with fear and intimidation.

      I don’t think Bundy is a “thief” and I doubt very much the government “provided him with the opportunity in the first place”. Personally, I haven’t felt the effects or detected any private citizen from Bunkerville, NV stealing from me.
      While my wallet is quite thin it must not be as sensitive as yours.

      I did go on the Nevada Cattleman’s Association website and read their statement concerning Bundy. I was disappointed because it seems like the government has beaten them down so badly over the years that they threw poor Bundy under the bus. The NCA seems like it’s content to be nibbled to death by ducks. Probably more ballet than bull riders coming out of those quarters now-a-days…not that there’s anything wrong with that.
      I am curious about how the local Chamber of Commerce views the situation?

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      • John Williams says

        Oh Yes, certainly anyone who disagrees with you must do so because the “big bad government has beaten them down”, not because they validly disagree with the position. WOW! Those darn professional cattlemen must be soooo weak! Too foolish to respond to.

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  38. Lawrence says

    Grazing livestock on public lands is a right that also comes with responsibility’s. If the permit holder fails to live up to the requirements stipulated as a permit holder their can be legal penalties imposed by the agency issuing the permit. Not paying your AUM grazing fees, exceeding the amount of livestock on your permit are cause for both fines and loss of permit. Mr. Bundy has done all of these and done it for years.
    We have government agency’s like the BLM for a reason. They are supposed to administer our public lands in a way which is fair to permit holders and also does not have an overly negative impact on public land. Often referred to as the Bureau of Mining and Livestock by people who value these beautiful lands for more than grazing livestock, strip mining, gold mining and logging the BLM has until recently
    had little interest in protecting the environment. BLM lands are multi-use and all of the above activity’s are ongoing and expanding.
    Unlike the good ole days when no one at the BLM gave a rat’s behind about endangered species or the interest of recreational users of BLM land the ever changing world has created new issues for BLM land managers to deal with. If an endangered species is impacted by livestock they have the right and responsibility reduce or eliminate the livestock. They tried for years to do this on Bundy’s permit area and he refused to cooperate. He forced the BLM to take drastic measures.

    That the Governor and Clark County Sheriff refused to help the BLM enforce a court ordered
    removal of the livestock and allow a bunch of armed thugs from out of state to disrupt due process of law is an outrage. If the government
    does not respond to what Bundy and his militia have done, then all of our country faces anarchy and eventual collapse. Harry Reid say’s “this is not over”. I pray he means it.

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      • King Curmudgeon says

        I’m pretty sure that depends on the actions of the instigators,or,the BLM.

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      • Brian says

        I agree, but I doubt it. Both sides have mishandled the situation and need to let things calm down before starting up again.

        Unfortunately, neither side seems to want to sit down and work things out calmly. Both sides are throwing around very inflammatory words like “sedition”, “terrorist”, and “thugs”. Guns and insults do not lead to peaceful solutions. It doesn’t matter which side is using them.

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  39. woodpile says

    Are you referring to the unbelievably brazen Harry Reid that makes Richard Nixon look like a saint ? !!
    Is this the Harry Reid that demands justice from a simple rancher but turns his head when it comes to Benghazi, gun smuggling, IRS targeting and on and on ? Besides, what difference does it make ?! The cows already ate the sage grass !

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    • John Williams says

      When you repeat the BS about Benghazi, gun smuggling, IRS targeting etc you lose ALL CREDIBILITY. Quit watching Fox, you’ve lost all perspective.

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      • woodpile says

        John,
        Let me add Karl Rove, Dick Cheney and the Republican establishment to the list. Does that make me more credible? I merely pointed out the Democrats baggage because it was laughable that anybody would look to Harry Reid as some beacon of justice. Let’s not kid anybody, we are all living under the Golden Rule.

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  40. Lawrence says

    I don’t like Harry Reid , and I don’t trust him either. Maybe the Governor? Maybe the Sheriff? Maybe the President? Maybe Bundy? A bunch of gun toting freaks? Who do you trust when every ones a crook. I don’t think anything will be done.

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